General Who Probed Abu Ghraib Says Bush Officials Committed War Crimes

By Warren P. Strobel | McClatchy NewspapersTaguba

WASHINGTON — The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing “war crimes” and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who’s now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

“After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes,” Taguba wrote. “The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. “The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture,” he wrote.

A White House spokeswoman, Kate Starr, had no comment.

Taguba didn’t respond to a request for further comment relayed via a spokesman.

The group Physicians for Human Rights, which compiled the new report, described it as the most in-depth medical and psychological examination of former detainees to date.

Doctors and mental health experts examined 11 detainees held for long periods in the prison system that President Bush established after the 9-11 terrorist attacks. All of them eventually were released without charges.

The doctors and experts determined that the men had been subject to cruelties that ranged from isolation, sleep deprivation and hooding to electric shocks, beating and, in one case, being forced to drink urine.

Bush has said repeatedly that the United States doesn’t condone torture.

“All credible allegations of abuse are thoroughly investigated and, if substantiated, those responsible are held accountable,” said Navy Cmdr. J.D. Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman. The Defense Department responds to concerns raised by the International Committee for the Red Cross, he said, which has access to detainees under military control.

“It adds little to the public discourse to draw sweeping conclusions based upon dubious allegations regarding remote medical assessments of former detainees, now far removed from detention,” Gordon said.

The physicians’ group said that its experts, who had experience studying torture’s effects, spent two days with each former captive and conducted intensive exams and interviews. They administered tests to detect exaggeration. In two of the 11 cases, the group was able to review medical records.

The report, “Broken Laws, Broken Lives,” concurs with a five-part McClatchy investigation of Guantanamo published this week. Among its findings were that abuses occurred — primarily at prisons in Afghanistan where detainees were held en route to Guantanamo — and that many of the prisoners were wrongly detained.

Also this week, a probe by the Senate Armed Services Committee revealed how senior Pentagon officials pushed for harsher interrogation methods over the objections of top military lawyers. Those methods later surfaced in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld didn’t specifically approve of the worst abuses, but neither he nor the White House enforced strict limits on how detainees would be treated.

There was no “bright line of abuse which could not be transgressed,” former Navy general counsel Alberto Mora told the Senate committee.

Leonard Rubenstein, the president of Physicians for Human Rights, said there was a direct connection between the Pentagon decisions and the abuses his group uncovered. “The result was a horrific stew of pain, degradation and … suffering,” he said.

Detainee abuse has been documented previously, in photos from Abu Ghraib, accounts by former detainees and their lawyers and a confidential report by the International Committee for the Red Cross that was leaked to the U.S. news media.

Of the 11 men evaluated in the Physicians for Human Rights report, four were detained in Afghanistan between late 2001 and early 2003, and later sent to Guantanamo. The remaining seven were detained in Iraq in 2003.

One of the Iraqis, identified by the pseudonym Laith, was arrested with his family at his Baghdad home in the early morning of Oct. 19, 2003. He was taken to a location where he was beaten, stripped to his underwear and threatened with execution, the report says.

“Laith” told the examiners he was then taken to a second site, where he was photographed in humiliating positions and given electric shocks to his genitals.

Finally, he was taken to Abu Ghraib, where he spent the first 35 to 40 days in isolation in a small cage, enduring being suspended in the cage and other “stress positions.”

He was released on June 24, 2004, without charge.

ON THE WEB

The Physicians for Human Rights report.

McClatchy’s investigation of Guantanamo Bay detainees.

  1. #1 by Richard Warnick on June 19, 2008 - 9:07 am

    C-SPAN fans had the chance to watch the testimony at two torture hearings this week, before the Senate Armed Services Committee and the House Judiciary Committee. These hearings have established once and for all that the torture of detainees was encouraged and approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration.

    What was the rule on torture? “If the detainee dies you’re doing it wrong,” said Jonathan Fredman, chief counsel, CIA Counter-terrorism Center who approved the use of waterboarding at Guantanamo.

    Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Colin Powell, testified that 108 detainees have died in U.S. custody.

  2. #2 by rawdawgbuffalo on June 19, 2008 - 10:22 am

    Folks aint even paying attention to Afghanistan because of what I call the blinded by the Obamafication of America

  3. #3 by Cliff on June 19, 2008 - 10:29 am

    Folks aint even paying attention to Afghanistan because its a lost cause. The tribal leaders have re-established control and Karzai is useless.

  4. #4 by Richard Warnick on June 19, 2008 - 11:00 am

    I’m paying attention to Afghanistan, however that’s a subject for another post. I did a sitrep on Afghanistan two weeks ago, and due to recent developments we’re about due for another one.

  5. #5 by Larry Bergan on June 19, 2008 - 11:54 am

    The term “detainees” is misleading. Being detained implies that you will be able to leave once things are rectified. Bush’s desire to prevent any recourse for these sometimes innocent victims meant they never knew if they would EVER be released, adding a horrifying dimension to their nightmare. Just as the domestic drug war has done, we are now faced with people who have been made potentially violent because of their incarceration and for no other reason.

    How did this happen to my country?

  6. #6 by Albert O. on June 19, 2008 - 12:30 pm

    How did this happen to my country?

    Too many people became too stupid and too susceptible.

    Really, as much as I hate to admit it, Karl Rove is brilliant, and I am sure his playbook will become a model for politicians throughout the ages.

  7. #7 by Larry Bergan on June 19, 2008 - 12:50 pm

    Albert O:

    Never forget! We didn’t actually vote these guys in. That goes for many of the senators and congressmen too. I, personally, don’t think Rove is as brilliant as he is brutal. He should be given the opportunity to put his ruthlessness to the true test. Behind bars and far away from our electoral system.

  8. #8 by Albert O. on June 19, 2008 - 4:08 pm

    Agreed, Larry, agreed!

    But when I refer to stupid and susceptible, I refer to those who don’t belong to the 80% referred to in the below link, together with those late bloomers who only now recognize how bad things became under the Chimp and who earlier supported his administration!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/19/most-say-us-on-wrong-trac_n_108138.html

  9. #9 by cav on June 19, 2008 - 6:12 pm

    A Japanese high-court also found GW guilty of war crimes in Afghanistan…but that was five years ago. How time flies when he’s having fun.

  10. #10 by Albert O. on June 20, 2008 - 10:43 am

    Well, I wonder what the 29%ers – Ken Bingham and Bob S. come to mind – have to say about this:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/20/scott-mcclellan-testifies_n_108279.html

    Indeed, what say you Ken and Bob?

  11. #11 by Bob S. on June 20, 2008 - 11:10 am

    Albert,

    Does it matter what I or anyone will say to you or others about this? It certainly appears that the 1Utah crowd has made up their minds that Bush and his administration are the worst criminals in the world. Has anything I’ve said changed your opinion of them?

    I have publicly stated many times that the place for Bush and his administration to answer for any crimes is the courts. I will stated that the Bush Administration screwed up handling the Plame/Wilson issue. The admin should have stood up in front of the world and told the facts. The fact that Plame was involved in getting her husband sent on the fact finding mission, the fact that Wilson is a political partisan, that Wilson’s own report confirmed that Iraq approached the Nigerian government, etc and etc. Plame’s identity was not covered by the applicable law, and telling people was not violating that law. Covering up their actions was the mistake.

    There that should give everyone plenty to gab about, shouldn’t it?

    Also, as far as Scott McClellan is concerned; here is an example on that concept Cliff calls a canard- personal responsibility. If the man had doubts, questions or did not believe in what he was saying as part of his job, he should have quit then and there.

    McClellan’s not saying anything new, why waste time and space on it.

  12. #12 by Cliff Lyon on June 20, 2008 - 11:20 am

    I think can interpret Ken and Bob’s silence by saying, “ooops. I have swallowed and regurgitated so much uninformed right-wing propaganda for soooo long, behind which, I have put the full weight of my deluded self-conviction, that I would rather go down the tubes with the rest of America while still blaming the left with my final breath, in the deperate hope that someday I may be vindicated by some false-flag attack that will prove to the world that we really SHOULD be afraid and suspend all of our freedoms and redirect all of our national wealth to the very rich because the deserve it because they have demonstrated their moral superiority through their proven individual responsibility to get as rich as possible without consideration for the obviously less ambitious.

  13. #13 by Bob S. on June 20, 2008 - 11:34 am

    Cliff,

    Once again you open your mouth (so to speak) only to prove how wrong you can be.

  14. #14 by Albert O. on June 20, 2008 - 11:38 am

    Yo, Bob, I see you playing that shell game again.

    The Chimp admin lied to you, too. And there you go, making excuses for that lie.

    BTW, if you really think this way, you might be happier living in Russia.

  15. #15 by Larry Bergan on June 20, 2008 - 3:02 pm

    Albert O:

    That 80% is indeed a hopeful number, since the Republicans are so good at maximizing their fake support on the media. They’ve been telling us the soccer and security moms and religious and moral people and GUN RIGHTS PEOPLE and people who hate illegal aliens and gays and every other group they can conjure up, are putting these traitors in the White House and Congress. All they had to do was steal the elections in every imaginable way and propagate that lie using the complicit media.

    Who are they going to say voted for them this time?

    Bob S:

    Well I guess that little conversation we had where you said Bush should be investigated BEFORE he was made retroactively immune for illegal wiretapping is now moot, since today he has been made immune by every single Republican in the house except one. You must be proud of helping these guys retain their offices.

  16. #16 by Bob S. on June 20, 2008 - 3:08 pm

    Larry,

    Hmm, who has a majority in the house? Hint, it’s not the Republicans.

    Richard addressed it but you won’t, the Democratically controlled House passed it.

    Are you proud of helping these guys retain their offices?

    This is what I talk about when I mention Bush Derangement Syndrome. The Democrats are equally culpable in this, but do you have words for all the folks who supported the democratic members of the house? Nope.

  17. #17 by Larry Bergan on June 20, 2008 - 3:33 pm

    128 Democrats voted against immunity. 1 Republican did.

    Equally culpable?

    I’ve never shied away from condemning the Democrats who vote for things like this. If the Republicans would stop stealing our elections, we would see a very different outcome.

    Bob, your derangement and ignorance isn’t funny, it’s a national security problem.

  18. #18 by cav on June 20, 2008 - 5:39 pm

    Bush’s derangement, and the congress’s respect for the ‘office’holder, are not working out too well. We bow to our Deranged overlords, (lest something nasty happens to us) We don’t EVEN want to find out, but it will clearly have nothing to do with the truth…anthrax, or torture, which we don’t do.

  19. #19 by Cliff Lyon on June 20, 2008 - 6:08 pm

    So does that mean I nailed it Bob?

  20. #20 by Nephi on June 20, 2008 - 8:53 pm

    I am befuddled.

    Bush and his minions lie to the nation, which likely includes Bob S., and yet Bob S. makes excuses for the lies.

    What’s up with that?

    Who is this Bob S. anyway and why does he support being lied to?

  21. #21 by Anonymous on June 20, 2008 - 9:28 pm

    Cliff, spoken like a man who has been there, done that!

  22. #22 by Anonymous on June 20, 2008 - 9:34 pm

    The election stealing mantra is getting old.

  23. #23 by Anonymous on June 20, 2008 - 9:35 pm

    It was pointed out to me today by a studious man that it is now no longer illegal to lie as a matter of course in court. Meaning that defenses can be made upon a foundation of lies, without consequence.

    Frankly, we see this in our representation of all parties, as they regularly disdain their Oaths of Office, and the duty to defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. This most recent vote makes it all the more glaring.

    I’m sure not all of you are yet sure, where we are headed, but the clue is…exactly where we are pointed.

    I’ll give you a hint, it begins with a F.

    Let’s face it, most dems are afraid. They vote like their lives depend on it. Wise to be so inclined.

  24. #24 by Nephi on June 20, 2008 - 10:56 pm

    The election stealing mantra is getting old.

    Whatever; the Chimp and his continued shitting on the Constitution and fucking the American public is getting old, too!

    Sleep well, my friend! And enjoy your freedoms while they last!

  25. #25 by Larry Bergan on June 21, 2008 - 1:51 am

    The “we won, get over it” mantra is getting older, anonymous coward. How about this mantra? One man, one vote.

    I intend on beating the stolen election drum until every single American and Foreigner realize we’re not as stupid as we look, and every election official who knowingly participated in the fraud is in prison. If that’s not important to you, then fuck off/get out of my country!

  26. #26 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 6:48 am

    Nephi,

    What excuses for the lies am I making? I have a different opinion on the Plame situation. This is an opinion I came to after considerable research, not just reading the headlines or left-stream media reports. Read the IIPA law and its requirements.

    As for as the telecom immunity, I agreed that it should be investigated. As Larry pointed out, Congress has rendered it a moot point. I pointed out that it is not just the Bush administration walking over the Constitution.

    When I pointed that out, I’m accused of being an apologetic for Bush. So be it. But the truth of the matter is that without Congress Bush couldn’t get away with anything that’s being done. Congress, especially the Democrat controlled Congress is now equally as culpable as Bush.

    I disagree with Larry about the Election being stolen, for this I’m called a Bush apologetic. So be it. I have seen credible evidence that both parties are violating election laws, but I have not seen evidence that it is at a conspiracy level. If Larry thinks the election was stolen, as I have repeatedly stated, take it to the courts instead of crying about it here.

    I notice that Cliff is going back to politics instead of dealing with the 2nd amendment. Must have gotten tired of having everyone one of his points refuted successfully.

    I just don’t spend a lot of energy fighting politics on places like this. There is even less of a chance of convincing someone to change their philosophy than change their minds on the 2nd amendment. That is where I focus my online efforts at this time.

  27. #27 by Anonymous on June 21, 2008 - 7:09 am

    It isn’t your country alone Larry. It’s 8 flippin years by now! Get a life.

    Prove the election theft in a court of law, or just get to the point of beating these people.

    The rest is just the talk of losers, agitated ones at that. The stolen election mantra is getting old. Those that seize power through these means hardly care about such whining. Do something, and then see what happens.

    The majority of dems and reps are voting to approve this legislation. In that name, it is what it is, and this is your country. That you are in minority is a sad thing, but it is “the” thing. It’s called democracy, imperfect as it is.

  28. #28 by cav on June 21, 2008 - 7:52 am

    It’s a sad thing that there is no representation for the ‘left-leaning’. That the winner takes ALL (even when the margin is narrow and the winning is couched in technicalities and court decisions). It just doesn’t seem reasonable to me that apoligists for the ascention of questionable politics keep hauling out ‘elections were not stolen, no lies were told, imperialism is not our creed, and of course, we do not torture. – We are GOOD people and our representatives speak for us’.

    It’s all true and: Oil is not the issue, there were Weapons of Mass Destruction, Pipelines around the Middle-East are organic, “I am not a Crook”, One supreme Court vote in an unprecedented ruling swung this thing, and We are good people (especially the scum floating at the surface). Yea, take it to court. Oh, that the shoe were on the other foot.

    They’re fitting the orange prison outfits in room 2A. Or are you ‘with’ us?

  29. #29 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 10:02 am

    Bob S.:

    Simple question for you: while it might not have been illegal (assuming, arguendo, your legal research and conclusions are correct) was it proper for Cheney/Rove to out Plame because of Joe Wilson’s criticism of the Bush plan to invade Iraq?

  30. #30 by Albert O. on June 21, 2008 - 10:10 am

    Hey Anonymous:

    Just curious. Are you one of the ksl.com gas-bag chickenhawk cowards that I trolled over to 1U a few days ago? Your commentary gives you away!!

  31. #31 by Cliff Lyon on June 21, 2008 - 12:19 pm

    He’s baaaack. Anonymous is Mr. Hoefer.

  32. #32 by Larry Bergan on June 21, 2008 - 2:29 pm

    cav:

    Good comment! But It’s worse then “winner takes all” it’s actually loser takes all which is a great title for a book…

    Well, I’ll be darned, there already is one!

    Loser take all, election fraud and the subversion of Democracy 2000, 2008

    Mark Crispin Miller has been obsessed with this cause like myself, but is a great American hero to me because of the fact that he is a professor and would have been much happier if he had never paid any attention to this horrible reality. He has not cowered one iota from telling the complete ugly truth about the dangers we face. You will never see him on television, other then an occasional C-Span spot.

    Luckily, he has a website!
    So does another hero of mine, Brad Friedman!

    Bob S will continue to read crap written by anti-democracy, lying jerks like John Fund.

    No voting integrity activist stands to benefit, other then the fact that their efforts could lead to honest elections. That’s called a good cause.

  33. #33 by The Blessed Rope! on June 21, 2008 - 3:20 pm

    It then comes to the People, to understand the depths to which they, and the Oaths they obligated of Officers, duly elected, who apply themselves in contravention of Oath…, and then we the People, so in response, apply the Penalty to offenders unto the maximum.

    There being no maximum, in acts contravening Oaths of Public Office, only what is to be applied to those so unworthy of such a Trust, review of their Deeds, and duly proven in deed, to be so…, there said, Convicted.

    The rest is the nattering of nabobs and weaklings.

    As the Rope, waits upon chafing, and surly that.

  34. #34 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 4:44 pm

    Nephi,

    This is almost guaranteed to cause an uproar here, but the answer yes; the administration should have revealed the relationship between Plame and Wilson.

    Wilson was touting his trip as not having an agenda when that was far from the case; his statements in the press and in public were completely opposite of his report. How he was selected and who was involved illustrated the politics behind his selection and the report.

    Honesty should have prevailed, the administration should have been willing to be more upfront about it. If they would have let the information out publicly, the public would have been able to see the report for the attack it was.

    Of course, no matter what the administration did, the press would have attacked them.

    If they didn’t fight back, then the reasons for the war were false. If they fight back, they are accused of revealing identities for political purposes. I would have taken the public path; stated why Wilson got the assignment, how his wife was involved and let the public see the mechanisms behind the politics.

  35. #35 by Cliff Lyon on June 21, 2008 - 5:57 pm

    Bob, you are so full of shit you’d have to be a parrot just so you can discharge at will.

    For your convenience.

    Joe Wilson has not been proven to have lied by anyone.

  36. #36 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 6:33 pm

    Cliff,

    Call names, stomp your feet and hold your breath all you want.
    Fact, Joe Wilson reported that Iraq send a delegation to Niger to discuss “trade talks”.

    Wilson reported that he had met with Niger’s former Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki, who said that in June 1999 he was asked to meet with a delegation from Iraq to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between the two countries.

    What does Niger have to export? Yellowcake Uranium.

    Butler Report: It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.

    Link to your own posts all you want, doesn’t change the facts.
    Fact Valerie Plame was involved with getting her husband the assignment.
    Fact Joe Wilson reported Iraq approaching Niger.
    Fact Joe Wilson attacked the Bush administration for the justifications when his own report supported and provide part of that justification.

    Fact – Check out the number of times my statements have been supported and yours have been found wanting. You still haven’t admitted that entitlements are 50% of the budget.

  37. #37 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 7:22 pm

    Bob:

    I am disappointed that you feel Plame should have been outed because of Wilson’s statements re Niger/Iraq. I would rather you thought that the administration should have debunked the statements, rather than debunking the messenger (or, better yet, the messenger’s wife). But, then again, when has the Bush administration ever been able to win on the facts alone?

  38. #38 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 7:29 pm

    Nephi,

    First off, the word “outed” is a loaded and misleading statement. There was nothing to be “outed” Valerie Plame was not covered by the IIPA. The CIA may have classified her employment at the agency, but that is done routinely.

    I hear often on this board there is too much secrecy, but when it goes against the grain, when it can be used to attack Bush, things should be kept secret. Double standard?

    Part of debunking the message and messenger is to tell the truth at the behind the scenes politics. Wouldn’t everyone agree there is too much behind the scenes activity in Washington?

    This is another case of the facts were being put out there, but people wanted to attack the administration instead of hearing the message.

  39. #39 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 7:53 pm

    Bob,

    You state in your comment that Plame was classified by the agency. Whether routine or not, the fact the agency classified her should have counseled against a decision to “out” her. Furthermore, if the outing was perfectly legal, then why did the entire administration freak out to the point where Libby (a lawyer) obstructed justice to cover up this thing that was so perfectly legal?

    No, I don’t think I am going to buy into your analysis. And most rational thinking folks without an agenda of defending the Bush administration are unlikely to buy into it either.

  40. #40 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 9:03 pm

    Nephi,

    There is a huge difference between the internal designations used by the CIA and the requirements of the LAW. The CIA often over emphasizes their classifications but it does not carry the force of law. It’s internal only.

    The reason every freaked out is exactly what has happened, the administration is being pilloried for it’s actions. Actions that Fitzgerald either found legal or without cause to bring to trial. Not even Libby was tried for violating ANY LAW concerning the release of Plame’s identity, just lying in the coverup.

    Most rational people have gotten over the issue and moved on, what does that mean about the folks here at 1Utah?

  41. #41 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 9:23 pm

    Huh????

    Bob, while I have been absent from 1U for a while, I have read some prior posts where you flat out deny being an apologist for the Bush administration. Yet, when I read your response to my comment, I cannot help but conclude you are being exactly that: an apologist for the administration!

    You agree that Plame was considered classified, yet you make excuses as to why that should not matter.

    You agree that the administration freaked out, yet you make excuses for that, too.

    Bottom line is, even assuming your analyses are correct, which I doubt they are, Plame was considered classified and Rove/Cheney were involved in her outing; the administration freaked out following her outing, presumably because they were concerned about legalities; and only after the outing and later freaking out did Fitzgerald become involved, at which point Libby lied to cover something up that was, as you say, completely legal.

    This doesn’t add up or, for that matter, even pass the smell test!!!

    Again, given the foregoing, I challenge you to convince me and others at 1U why I/we should not consider you an apologist for the Bush administration!!!

  42. #42 by Leo Brown on June 21, 2008 - 9:24 pm

    Rational folks may have “gotten over” the issue, but at the cost of the continuing collapse of Bush’s popularity. Cheney’s numbers are even worse. And that’s just in the U.S. Bush’s support in the free world we are supposed to be leading is dismal.

  43. #43 by Bob S. on June 21, 2008 - 10:01 pm

    Nephi,

    What is hard to understand about wanting the truth to be out without being in someone’s camp.

    Many of the posters on this blog have a nearly certifiable irrational fixation on Bush being the root of all evil.

    Did the administration play it wrong when the issue came up, yes. Where there reasons for the way they tried to play it, yes. Do I agree with it, no.

    You can consider me whatever you want, it doesn’t change the fact of what I am. I post whenever I see something particularly outrageous, both for and against Bush. I’ve called for any violations to be investigated,

    The problem that I see in many arguments is people aren’t letting the facts stand in the way of their opinions. Cliff is a great example of this, I pointed that out earlier when I talked about entitlements.

    Leo, in regards to Bush’s support, I think it’s about time we stopped caring so much about what other people think of us and start considering what we think of ourselves.

    The entire government’s numbers are the lowest every; indicating there is a complete distrust of the government, regardless of party. And there are strong reasons for that, neither of the parties are doing the job of running the country. Both are just running for re-election. Time to throw out all of the scoundrels and start over again.

    I don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of us, I want America to do the right thing. The things identified by our founding fathers and the documents they wrote to guide us.
    We need to do the right thing, not because of world opinion, but because they are the right thing to do. Let the world see leadership in action. Hate to tell folks this, but fighting the war on terror is one of those things. Unless we stop the attacks and make it too costly to even consider it, this world will be under radical islamic rule before we know it. Not all terror is islamic based, but the majority of it is, let’s stop being politically correct and address the issues.

    If any of this make you consider me a Bush apologetic, go ahead. I’ll tell you like I told Cliff; I give your opinion of me as much consideration as I do a gnat’s fart.

  44. #44 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 10:16 pm

    I don’t care what the rest of the world thinks of us, I want America to do the right thing. The things identified by our founding fathers and the documents they wrote to guide us.

    The Taliban and al Qaida say the same thing about their founding fathers!!!

    Bob:

    Don’t you see even a bit of hypocrisy in your position???

  45. #45 by Albert O. on June 21, 2008 - 10:25 pm

    Bob

    What attacks are you talking about – the attack by a handful of nutcases on 9/11 or the preemptive attack by the US military on Iraq? Just want to be clear re what you are referring.

    PS Good to see you back in action, Neph! Where you been?

  46. #46 by Nephi on June 21, 2008 - 11:32 pm

    Outta town …

  47. #47 by Larry Bergan on June 22, 2008 - 1:23 am

    Bob S says:

    I want America to do the right thing.

    Is doing the right thing even legal in America anymore? Can you prove in a court of law that doing the right thing is legal, Bob? Can the government retroactively make doing the right thing, the wrong thing?

    I’m not being facetious here. I am completely serious and I would like a serious answer!

    Whistleblowers do the RIGHT thing and have no rights whatsoever under our present administration. Diebold was breaking the law, (yes, breaking the law Bob), in California and when a Whistleblower exposed them, resulting in two lawsuits Diebold lost and settled in court to make the story go away, The Whistleblower, Steven Heller, was named as a felon and lost everything.

    John Perkins, who wrote ” Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” has written that his job for our government was to give leaders of foreign countries we wanted to screw an ultimatum. Take this suitcase full of money or we’ll kill you. I think it was Amy Goodman who asked him if the people he worked for could break any law they wanted. His answer was, It’s much, much worse! They make the laws.

    Imagine the Mafia writing it’s own laws. Hmmm, whatever happened to the Mafia anyway. You don’t hear a whole lot about them anymore, do you? They must have been so disgusted by some of their people getting into drug dealing that they disbanded. Maybe something else happened?

    I better shut up!

    Please Bob, help your country do the right thing and stop apologizing for these crooks.

  48. #48 by Cliff Lyon on June 22, 2008 - 4:11 am

    Bobby, You do realize, you said, “What is hard to understand about wanting the truth to be out without being in someone’s camp.”

    Then in the very next sentence, you say,”Many of the posters on this blog have a nearly certifiable irrational fixation on Bush being the root of all evil.”

    So which is it? Are you a Bush girl or a rule-of-law girl?

    One thing is 4 sure, you are a self-contradicting hypocrite (…and a Bush lover)

  49. #49 by Cliff Lyon on June 22, 2008 - 4:57 am

    Most rational people have gotten over the issue and moved on, Bob S.

    Its statements like these that suggest you do not choose your words carefully. And since I don’t imagine you would even know where to begin to defend that statement, perhaps you should spend your time thinking about this.

    God gave us this terrible cognitive disease….yes disease, defect, whatever, and that is, out of the box, we all tend to think everybody thinks like ourselves. But its almost never quite right, and is the reason MOST people come out of pretty much any debate shaking their heads.

    Bob, most rationale people who understand this realm of politics and history have not and will not forget the Plame case.

    Do you realize it is if true, the first major case of TREASON?

    I don’t believe you can identify another such act for which a president is been directly implicated, in your lifetime.

    Any rational PATRIOTIC American, cannot forget, just like many self-proclaimed patriots can’t get over the White House blow job.

  50. #50 by cav on June 22, 2008 - 5:45 am

    Well Cliff, On a cellular and textile level, the blow-job was much much worse.

    I’m out till late July. Have fun.

  51. #51 by Leo Brown on June 22, 2008 - 6:26 am

    In a democracy is actually does matter what people think. Leave Bush out of the poll and you still get huge numbers of Americans saying America is on the wrong track, and they blame the GOP, which still can block the Democrats in the Senate. In generic ballot polling, the public now favors Democrats. Democrats are wining in what were once solidly Republican districts, three House contests in a row now. In five months we will have what President Bush called an accountability moment.

    In a guerilla war is also does matter what people think. The rest of the world loved the old American Century and is distrustful of where President Bush has taken us in the Project for the New American Century. After 9-11 almost entire world was sympathetic to us. We have squandered that support and our true national heritage by embracing moral relativism (torture is OK if we do it in a good cause, i.e. the ends justifies the means) and the Maoist view of the world that power really does grow out of the barrel of a gun. This is not the best way to defend America or what America used to stand for.

  52. #52 by Cliff Lyon on June 22, 2008 - 8:42 am

    Cav, Have a great month!

  53. #53 by Larry Bergan on June 22, 2008 - 11:33 am

    cav:

    Come back! You can’t leave us here like this!

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