Honest Member Exposes The Corruption of LDS Argument

You can always count on the Deseret News to the print the stupidest letters one can imagine.

Kids need both mom and dad

It is fascinating that in the name of tolerance and love anyone not accepting the homosexual political agenda is hated and smeared. However, that doesn’t change the facts.

Marriage is, at base, a method for raising children. Research now overwhelmingly bears out what common sense has told us: Children grow up best in the homes of two parents of opposite sexes — preferably their own parents.

In Europe, where homosexual “marriage” is legal, the rate of children being raised in two-parent homes is sliding drastically because people are not marrying. Is giving a few self-indulgent adults “warm fuzzies” worth the price to the millions of children who will lose what they need most, a mother and a father?

Richard Coxson, Spanish Fork

Were it not for the stupidity of this letter, The Deseret New might have had room for THREE letters about socialism.



  1. #1 by John Cheshire on November 8, 2008 - 12:52 pm

    Cliff,

    As always you make a powerful argument that boils down to an ad hominem attack on Richard’s intelligence as opposed to countering with your own argument. I would at least expect you to attempt to deconstruct Richard’s argument as weak as it was. Instead your argument boils down to petty name calling. This tells me that I can either cross the University of Vermont of my children’s list of possible colleges to attend, or you are intellectually lazy. I have yet to see you make your own original argument that does not use rhetorical chicanery to avoid making an actual argument so I will just assume the latter.

    Regards,
    John

  2. #2 by Cliff Lyon on November 8, 2008 - 1:28 pm

    My apologies John. I didn’t call the writer stupid, I called the letter stupid. Its a local thing you wouldn’t understand.

    Here’s what I posted at the Desnews site.

    “This argument is based on false premise, that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.

    This is of course a premise of LDS doctrine, but it is certainly NOT the case in Europe or among progressive, educated Americans.”

    Has anyone else noticed that people who apparently disagree with me, instead presenting a counter argument, spend all their energy trashing the messenger? (Tired Rovian tactic)

    I’m ok with that, but I think it gets boring. And it certainly doesn’t change the fact that the right-wingers who criticize me personally, are simply avoiding the subject at hand.

    I’m guessing because your leaders are officially irrelevant now that the people have spoken, and therefore you have nothing left to parrot.

    You might have to come up with something original, huh?

    As for ascribing your opinion of me to my college, I would remind you that both the worst president American history, and the most popular president-elect went to Harvard.

    Why are you deciding where your kids can and cannot go to College? Please tell them for me that the quality of education they will get is 100% a function of how much effort they put into it.

  3. #3 by C av on November 8, 2008 - 1:42 pm

    But Cliff, do you mean that Marriage NEEDN’T / DOESN’T equate to ‘Baby factory’?

    Someone better tell the Mormons, Catholics, etc.

  4. #4 by Cliff Lyon on November 8, 2008 - 1:46 pm

    Yeah, Its no wonder 50% of them end up destroying the family and especially the kids.

  5. #5 by Cliff Lyon on November 8, 2008 - 1:50 pm

    Zoologically, kids actually DO NOT NEED a father in the emotional sense but merely for physical survival in the ancestral environment.

    Anthropologist believe that the the baby’s kin and village were more important than the biological father.

    In the modern world, there is no need for a father anymore. Millions of women raise perfectly healthy children without men.

    Heck, we just elected one.

  6. #6 by Obama the Paul [Mero] on November 8, 2008 - 2:27 pm

    What bothers me most is the tired circular arguments opponents of same sex marriage always appear to fall back on: Heterosexual couples produce children, heterosexual couples are often married when producing children, therefore, as Richard concludes, “marriage is a method for raising children.”

    What the opponents fail to realize, however, including Richard, is that marriage is not the only method for raising children. Indeed, as Cliff points out, heterosexual marriage often results in an enormously unhealthy environment in which to raise children, as anyone growing up in a household featuring constant violence will tell you.

    What gives me comfort, however, is recognizing the inherent weakness of the argument generally raised by opponents of same sex marriage, and the knowledge that such an argument will generally wind up in the trash heap of similar conservative positions.

  7. #7 by jdberger on November 8, 2008 - 7:00 pm

    Yeah, Its no wonder 50% of them end up destroying the family and especially the kids.

    Could you please explain this statement?

  8. #8 by John Cheshire on November 9, 2008 - 1:27 am

    Has anyone else noticed that people who apparently disagree with me, instead presenting a counter argument, spend all their energy trashing the messenger?

    hmmmm. Isn’t that a perfect description of your post? Project much?

    I think I will cross U of V of that list as logic and irony don’t seem to be something they teach.

    BTW – Calling the writer stupid or calling the argument stupid accomplishes the same thing. It is a retorical trick used by those who lack the skills or are to lazy to use them. The point being to discredit the argument or arguer with simple insults to avoid having to make a counter argument. The beautiful part of this strategy is that it has a boomerang effect on the person who deploys such a tactic.

    So my argument remains the same.

  9. #9 by Obama the Paul on November 9, 2008 - 8:02 am

    John:

    Your argument does remain the same: a collection of republican talking points that have been so thoroughly debunked already that no one should have to expend a single breath debunking them yet again.

    PS. You appear to like throwing insults from time to time yourself – a little pot calling the kettle black?

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