Twenty Percenters, The Underbelly of America

These are folks who were still lined up in Ohio after midnight for Sarah Palin’s book signing. These people are 20-percenters. They are tribalist, uninterested in facts, generally ignorant, uninformed Americans. The type the Founding Fathers warned us about. They are bad Americans all.

Part I

Part II

  1. #1 by mike on November 22, 2009 - 9:12 am

    Cliff,

    “They are tribalist, uninterested in facts, generally ignorant, uninformed Americans. The type the Founding Fathers warned us about. They are bad Americans all.”

    Are you referring to Sarah Palin’s moronic followers or some of you own OneUtah blog authors?

    Truly try asking some of your authors for facts and evidence and see where that gets you.

  2. #2 by James Farmer on November 22, 2009 - 9:25 am

    mike:

    Is the Palin thing depressing you? Maybe passage of health care reform in the coming weeks will cheer you up. It should!

  3. #3 by mike on November 22, 2009 - 9:56 am

    James,

    You’re damn right, health care reform should cheer me up. We as a nation have been bent over for years by the health care industry. Unfortunately health care reform coming from the federal government, regardless of who is in power, will be a complete fiasco. We cannot possibly hope that one broken institution can reform another. Until we have serious reform in our federal government we can expect to eat the same shit sandwiches just under a different label.

    However what in the hell does that have to do with Cliff’s magnificent post?

    As far as Palin goes, it is truly a sad commentary on our nation that she has been able to rise to the prominence she has.

  4. #4 by Richard Warnick on November 22, 2009 - 9:58 am

    It’s probably fair to ask these people if they voted for Bush and if they are prepared to take personal responsibility for that mistake. But they come across more as victims than villains.

    In Indiana, hundreds of Palin fans were “left behind” when she stopped signing books. They surrounded her tour bus, booing and chanting “Sign our books!” (see the video).

    “We gave up our entire workday, stayed in the cold. My kids were crying,” said one man. “They went home with my wife. She was out here in the freezing cold all day. I feel like I don’t want to support Sarah.“

  5. #5 by James Farmer on November 22, 2009 - 11:13 am

    Shooting fish in a barrel comes to mind after watching these videos – really stupid, ignorant fish!

  6. #7 by Becky Stauffer on November 23, 2009 - 5:56 am

    Mike,

    As far as Palin goes, it is truly a sad commentary on our nation that she has been able to rise to the prominence she has.

    Would you care to elaborate? I’m curious to know more details about your opinion and how you arrived at this conclusion. No disagreeing with you, just interested in knowing what specifically troubles you about the Palin story.

  7. #8 by Cliff Lyon on November 23, 2009 - 8:03 am

    Mike,

    After claiming OneUtah authors have no facts or evidence, you make 2 more hyperbolic statements.

    1. “Palin has risen to prominence.”

    …By what standard? The media? She has the worse approval ratings possible.

    2. “Gov’t run health care will be a complete fiasco”

    … Like Medicare?

  8. #9 by mike on November 23, 2009 - 12:39 pm

    Cliff,
    Let me start by answering question 1. Are you just playing an ignorant jackass or are you for real? Sorry, I’ll try not to answer a question with a question. Let’s see….

    According to the Gallup poll she is tied in second place with Mitt Romney for whom the repubs would vote for in 2012

    She’s been on Oprah for hells sake and wait, she gave Oprah her highest ratings in two years.

    Finally she’s written a best seller or at least someone wrote it and put her name on it.

    Damn Cliff, let me know when your prominence has sunk that low.

    Question 2. Would you care to elaborate on the greatness of Medicare? Sorry another question in answer to a question. Seriously though do you believe that Medicare is run efficiently, has a high quality of care, and is financially stable, especially in the next two decades when the demographics of this country change dramatically with the retiring of all the baby boomers?

  9. #10 by Cliff Lyon on November 24, 2009 - 8:21 am

    Thanks for those answers Mike. Just wanted to make sure you didn’t confuse an Oprah appearance with her qualifications to be president.

    The administrative costs of medicare is 5% vs upward of 20% for private insurance.

    I prefer 5% and I prefer to pay higher taxes than absurd insurance rates.

  10. #11 by brewski on November 24, 2009 - 10:27 am

    Cliff, you ignorant hack.

    Private payers are bailing out Medicare. According to Milliman, an independent actuarial firm, Medicare—and to an even greater extent, Medicaid—underpays doctors and hospitals, shifting costs to private insurers. Milliman estimates that the average family in a private PPO health plan pays an additional $1,788 a year to compensate for underpayments by Medicare and Medicaid, representing a “hidden tax” on commercial payers totaling $89 billion a year.

    Providers could not keep their doors open without the higher payments from private insurers. A recent letter to Congress from 13 leading health-care delivery organizations, including the Mayo Clinic, said “many providers suffer great financial losses associated with treating Medicare patients.” They said that if these rates were expanded to patients who currently have private insurance, the result “will be unsustainable for even the nation’s most efficient, high quality providers, eventually driving them out of the market.” That means we would say goodbye to some of the best health-care systems in the country.

    Low administrative costs are a mirage. The claim that Medicare’s administrative costs are only 3% is fantasy. If all Medicare costs—such as revenue collection, personnel and enforcement—were accounted for, its administrative expenses would be at least twice as high. And it still wouldn’t be providing services private insurers do, such as nurse hotlines, decision-support tools and fraud detection, or paying the income, property and provider taxes that private plans must pay.

    Medicare is rife with fraud. According to the FBI, between 3% and 10% of all health spending is lost to health-care fraud. Despite the president’s promise this money could be recaptured to pay for his reform agenda, Congress has shown itself to be remarkably incapable of curtailing fraud and abuse in government health programs.

    Medicare short­-changes seniors. Medicare exposes patients to unmanageable costs if they become seriously ill—even limiting the total number of days a patient may spend in the hospital. The program covers only about 50% of the health costs of seniors, and most have supplemental insurance to fill in the gaps. This is not a model for comprehensive coverage.

    Medicare’s model is obsolete. Its basic benefit structure uses a fee-for-service model designed in 1965 which has not been altered since, except to add prescription drug coverage almost 40 years later. In contrast, private plans are continually evolving. They create incentives for patients to become more informed about their health choices, and offer innovative programs for disease management, wellness and prevention, and care coordination to improve quality and save money.

  11. #12 by William Chirolas on November 24, 2009 - 11:41 am

    Amazing how the WSJ finds those willing to mis-use information and assert that which they know to be a lie. These authors fall back on an actuarial report – and as an actuary that gives me hope – but then they don’t really read the http://www.milliman.com/expertise/healthcare/publications/rr/pdfs/imagining-16-12-RR02-01-09.pdf Milliman report.

    AEP estimates of errors in costing Medicare and insurance subsidies paid because of Medicare are as trust worthy as anything said on Fox Cable or Fox Business News – so for thos folks this is a great article. For the rest of us, we can see blue smoke and mirrors when an industry claims competition will mean the destruction of the service because they can’t be as efficient as the other guy – while that same industry says the other guy will take over the service unless they can maintain their price gouging. There is a slight per service excess in what the industry pays compared to Medicare, but Medicare does not stop you from having the service by refusing to pay – the way the industry does.

    The net after tax income of the service provider is net-net not much different if one does a fair allocation of the expenses of running a medical service. Seems Medicare collects its income more cheaply and that is somehow bad, and if you add people that would work to deny claims, like the insurance company model requires, the Medicare expense rate would double – to 6% from 3%. Maybe a comparison to the 15% to 30% expense rate for the insurance industry should be discussed. Meanwhile baseball and insurance remain the only corporations in the US that can conspire on price with competitors, and enjoy a monopoly in any market with no fear of legal demands for competition. Yep – that public plan option and Federal regulation sure are un-American and would be bad reform as we don’t need fair competition, policies that don’t screw the client, or even “more” competition. Indeed what little regulation we now have of insurance is state regulation, so lets end that and not replace it with Federal regulation as we just let companies sell policy forms across state lines in a race to the bottom of getting less coverage for more premium. After all that is the trend under the current system – less coverage, fewer covered, all for more premium.. And that is what the WSJ and the GOP wants to continue.

  12. #13 by cav on November 24, 2009 - 12:54 pm

    I see Lou ‘Too Crazy For His Own Crew’ Dobbs is contemplating throwing his hefty hat into the presidential ring.

    Ya just can’t make this stuff up.

  13. #14 by glenn on November 28, 2009 - 5:54 am

    You “warmers” will be the 20% ers before this is all over.

    More brutality from the “the” man on the study of sea level rise. This is a straight choke out victory for Morner. It has all been a shakedown. Shane, you argue with him about recent sea level rises.

    …and finally, a final word from the master of sea level observations Dr. Morner. He is a scientist. He claims there isn’t any, and he is “the” man. Most study, most credentials, for whatever that matters.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5067351/Rise-of-sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

  14. #15 by Glenn Hoefer on November 28, 2009 - 3:55 pm

    Go LOU!!

    Did you know there is a Dobbs-Spaight that signed the Constitution? 1787

    Wonder if they are related? Wonder no more.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dobbs_Spaight

    His ancestor, co-signer of the US Constitution, 1787.

    Say it, because you mean it Lou. Thanks for honoring the sacrifice of family and the Oath of Citizenship committing you to this Nation. It is not required of you due to being a born American. We naturalized very much appreciate your take upon the LAW of the LAND! You have tremendous support among us, and galvanized gravitas therein.

    Thank you again LOU DOBBS!!

(will not be published)


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