It’s always amusing to hear the older generations and political pundits criticize our generation, that we feel too entitled or we weren’t spanked enough or whatever the fuck old people complain about nowadays. For those of you who do not know, Generation Y or the millennial, is anyone who was born in the 80′s or early 90′s. Generally the most solid line rests between the inauguration of Reagan in 1981 and the fall of the Soviet union in 1992. It is the generation that is now either in college or recently graduated. We are the ones who played Mario and Sonic while watching Rocko’s Modern Life and Pete & Pete. We are the generation that started the internet boom with Youtube, Facebook and the likes.
We are sometimes called the worst generation. I don’t get why. If anything, this generation is by far the most powerful. Sure, we are a generation that feels entitled, that the world should be given to us. But we are also, a generation that had the idea of teamwork drilled into our heads. And as a result, our sense of entitlement is not selfish. We were told the world is our oyster. While the baby boomers said the world is mine, we said the world is ours. On top of that, we are tenacious. Mix that in with our technology and our ability to network, and you have raw power.
Why am I bringing this up? As you can tell, our generation is not in the best shape. We have a lot of debt both personally and, thanks to our IOU currency known as the National Debt, as a group. A lot of us are living with our parents. We are criminally unemployed. We have a failing economy while unrestrained, greedy corporations continue feeding at the trough with full support from the government.
However, the issue is one that is way more optimistic. We all know of the occupy movement, the Arab Spring, the riots in Europe. All of those were caused by the Y-gen. That is our movement.
Generation X? They were sold out by the rich. The Baby Boomers? They were the ones who voted for the neocon criminals in the 1980′s. The Y-gen? We made information accessible on the internet and in return, Democrats won the 2006 midterm elections. In 2008, we voted for Obama and shined the old voters. Then in 2010, our retraction allowed Republicans to take over and when we saw the consequences of that, we lit the fucking world on fire. We saw no future the way things were heading and we responded in force. The Tea Party, comprised primarily of the old was never this popular and is fading fast, literally dying out.
For Occupy, the cities and police have tried just about everything to stop this movement and if it were any earlier generation, they would have succeeded. But we have advantages. We are tenacious so that we resist any move from the opposition. We are better at teamwork and are more unified, so it’s impossible to target a leader. And if they manage to, we will easily find another. We are more tech savvy, so we can organize more efficiently and spread information faster than the opposition. We are well informed and rule the internet, so politicians can’t get away with lying to us or being hypocritical for very long. And most importantly, we have numbers. Big numbers. Larger than any other generation out there. That means that we are the generation to rule to world and make it a better place. Already, as our generation is allowed to vote, elections are now swayed by whether our generation votes or not. Corporations, conservatives, they hate that. Y-gen is more liberal than previous generations and that is what they feared.
It’s not that the corporations are afraid of losing, it’s that they have already lost.
#1 by Rico on November 26, 2011 - 8:23 am
The aged, predominantly fair-complexioned establishment is shitting their Hanes right about now.
Fear of a young planet.
#2 by Larry Bergan on November 26, 2011 - 10:57 am
I’m with this new generation all-the-way. I’m almost 60 years old, but I voted for Carter when my parents – who had been democrats all their lives – got fooled into voting for Reagan.
The powerful will always try to minimize and humiliate the young. My generation was no exception. How would you like being saddled with the term “Baby Boomer” or “Hippie”. I love the fact that this new movement recognized the ability of the media to define others to their own liking and gave themselves the perfect name, “The 99%”.
Obama won by millions more votes then what showed up in the computers. Election fraud has been turned into an art form and the Democrats in power are not going to help us. They voted for the voting machines and got rid of ACORN based on nothing just as the Republicans did.
#3 by Nathan on November 26, 2011 - 11:05 am
Election fraud can’t stop us. We have way too many numbers for them to stop. Mississippi and Ohio already showed us that.
#4 by Richard Warnick on November 26, 2011 - 11:12 am
When politics does not not live up to the promise of democracy, Americans try to change the politics. My generation tried and didn’t do well at all– in the end, we produced Clinton and Bush.
Now we are witnessing another generational upheaval, as young people recognize that electoral politics has failed again. The “change election” of 2008 put the Obama administration in power, but nothing changed. Once more, it’s time to fix our political system so that it represents the 99 Percent. Don’t let anybody get in your way!
#5 by Cliff Lyon on November 26, 2011 - 11:33 am
Nate,
This is really great post. I would love to hear more about your generation’s honest perspective on the Tea Party.
#6 by Larry Bergan on November 26, 2011 - 11:39 am
Nathan:
I wouldn’t be so sure about that, but Mississippi and Ohio were definitely surprising. It may be that election officials have decided it’s too risky to cheat, but the voting machines cannot be audited even though slot machines CAN.
I’d love to know how much Obama REALLY won by and we deserve that knowledge.
The machines should be turned into scrap.
Did you hear about the latest Utah problem?
#7 by Nathan Erkkila on November 26, 2011 - 1:02 pm
Larry: If anything, the Provo election is evident of just how powerful we are. You have the most conservative county out there and the results were 50/50. That isn’t something you see down there. But with regards to the machines, I believed that if they were rigged, then we would have seen McCain win because computers really don’t have to count votes if you don’t want them to. Can computers be rigged? Yes, but I don’t think they were because of the above mentioned.
#8 by Nathan Erkkila on November 26, 2011 - 1:17 pm
Cliff: It really depends on who you are talking too. Obviously the Millennials were a minority in the Tea Party, but there was an appeal to them that I believe died out the moment we realized it was more of a pro-conservative movement than an anti-government movement. There are people all over the spectrum. You have the Ron Paul supporters, the Obama supporters, so on and so forth, but if you are asking me about the majority, I would say that they are more liberal than previous generations maybe with the exception that we are more apathetic on gun politics. But that could just be the fact that I am in Utah and even the liberals I know own a firearm or seven.
#9 by Larry Bergan on November 26, 2011 - 1:26 pm
Nathan:
But what if Bonnie Morrow really DID win by an incredible landslide. Nobody can prove whether the original count or the recount was correct, right?
I’m getting dog tired of these incredibly close races that have been going on since 2000. Is half of Americas voting population so stupid that they would vote against themselves or is something else going on?
In other words, is it “What’s the Matter With Kansas” or are Americans really believers in democracy over fascism who have voted against Republicans for decades?
I would hope you’re interested in knowing which it is.
#10 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 2:12 pm
Larry: When you bring about the issue of these machines rigging the election, why would they heavily favor votes of one over the other? Wouldn’t you think it would be easier to simply fabricate the numbers? Even then, it seems like that kind of rigging has no power compared to the strength of my generation. Not even brutal dictators in the Middle East stand a chance against us need I remind you.
#11 by cav on November 27, 2011 - 2:41 pm
I truly admire your confidence and idealism, so maybe you can focus some of that youthful energy on correcting this:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/26/1040139/-VLTPs-American-Legislative-Exchange-Council-%E2%80%93-Federal-Government-and-Corrupt-Practices-?via=siderecent
Thanks in advance.
#12 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 3:18 pm
Nathan:
Your generation has no strength if you can”t vote.
Computer expert: MY ASS!
#13 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 3:21 pm
Let me lengthen that a little…
KISS MY ASS!
#14 by Rico on November 27, 2011 - 3:29 pm
Nathan:
Your generation has no strength if you can’t get out of indefinite detention and vote.
Meet your new enemy: the U.S. Senate.
#15 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 3:54 pm
We have more power than them. And it’s funny how you question me on computers when an a+ is easily within my capabilities (Which you probably don’t even know what that is). Your conspiracy sheds no proof on the subject and yet you claim it is. Here is a bit of insight. If the GOP really as in REALLY wanted to rig the computers, they could easily program the machines to fabricate the results. If they did use the computers to give their votes more leeway, then that serves as their disadvantage because it gives the Democrats too much leeway. So far these machines gave us Obama, gave us a majority in both chambers, gave us the majority in the states and rejected 2 very conservative proposals. Now let’s assume that you are right, we have so many numbers and our generation is so liberal, that their technique doesn’t work regardless.
#16 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 4:24 pm
And why should I be kissing your ass? Maybe it’ll be my generation that votes away your social security to pay for the debt that you got us into.
#17 by Fancy Feast on November 27, 2011 - 4:46 pm
That’s it, the oligarchy loves to see inter generational warfare..good going guys. Dumb and dumber.
#18 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 4:55 pm
Divide and conquer the generations!
That’s the ticket!
Keep it to yourself!
#19 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 5:08 pm
Like what your generation did by giving your parents the finger and abandoning them in retirement homes or like what you did to our generation by putting the US in extreme debt that sent us to die in the Middle East and expecting us to pay the bills? Don’t be a hypocrite about dividing and conquering the generations.
#20 by cav on November 27, 2011 - 5:32 pm
Nathan, I think it’s worth restating: We’re all in this together. And while I too thought Larry’s ‘Kiss my ass’ comment a poor restatement of his justified skepticism when it comes to voting machinery hi-jinks (we often correctly refer to it as crime).
The last thing I want to do is diminish your enthusiasm and sense of correctness. But those of us who have been around for many a year know all too well that generational posturing doesn’t square with reality. So, if you haven’t already done so, please go to:
http://oneutah.org/elections/2008-election/boomers-step-aside/#comment-227613
and read comment # 7 (thanks to Rico).
No one agrees with anyone else on every issue, but it’s helpful to keep in mind you have strong allies of every age.
Were anxious for you to show us how you’ll go about turning your ideals into the planets reality. We’re with you though! Make no mistake about that.
#21 by Fancy Feast on November 27, 2011 - 5:46 pm
What’s that about old age and guile vs youth and strength..? Something like that..there are elements in the younger generation who will be happy to take the reigns from the old oligarchy and summarily repress the masses of park dwellers. Same story different generations.
#22 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 5:55 pm
Any computer expert/textpert who doesn’t condemn voting machines is a human fraud.
I have an opinion and an asshole. Live with it!
#23 by cav on November 27, 2011 - 6:01 pm
Larry, get a grip…I do not want Nathan cutting my Social Security. In fact, I want him and everyone else to have the same or better fall-back support when he reaches ‘codgerhood’. There’s no good reason the bankers and voting machine proponentsget to get all of everything, now is there.
#24 by Rico on November 27, 2011 - 6:50 pm
Nate: know your enemy.
#25 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 8:37 pm
Larry: I never said I supported computer voting and I even agree with you. It leaves too much room for abuse. Where we disagree is that you think they have been rigged already and I don’t agree. There are a few reasons.
1. 2 out of the 3 past elections have gone in the favor of the democrats when the machines were first implimented. The last midterm was not a surprise with the disapproval of the dems. That and my generation didn’t really vote in 2010. That alone should give you an idea of our raw power.
2. The GOP still resorts to tricks such as preventing early voting. If all they needed to do was use the machines to win, then why bother with the rest.
3. Why would the machines allow leeway for democrats to win? Why not just program the machines to decide the winners? That would make rigging a hell of a lot easier.
That is why I don’t think they’re rigged, but paper ballots are also prone to abuse as we saw with the butterfly ballot.
#26 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 9:08 pm
Nathan:
I’m not counting on “raw power”, I’m counting on counting.
Early voting may be convenient, but a day off for voting would solve that problem.
The “butterfly ballot” woman was a republican before she was a democrat. How hard is that?
Al Gore received a minus 12,000 votes on a machine in Florida on election day. How hard is that? A cakewalk would be more strenuous.
If your generation has power; prove it! Get rid of the doubt.
#27 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Larry: It has already been proved. While you generation was greedy and elected rich assholes who don’t give a fuck about us, we voted for the most progressive party. When we saw the government mistreat us, we light the world on fire. And when they tried to beat us back, we made them look like the criminals. We have more resources and are way more organized than the baby boomers.
#28 by Glenden Brown on November 27, 2011 - 9:39 pm
Nathan – with all due respect, in 2010 lots of Democratic constituents didn’t vote – and look what happened. Having the right to vote and not voting is the same thing as not having the right to vote at all.
I have no problem holding Democratic pols feet to the fire, they’ve made some serious mistakes, but when election time came around in 2010 and too many voters sat at home, what we got was a government so dysfunctional we’re counting keeping the lights on as a success. I don’t doubt the potential power of your generation. But if people don’t vote, then their potential power doesn’t matter and mass protests can only get so far in changing things. If anyone knows that, it’s the baby boomers who flamed out in a spectacular manner in the 1970s. They were good at getting millions to protests but when the time came to make a real difference, to vote, to hold office, they failed.
#29 by Nathan Erkkila on November 27, 2011 - 9:50 pm
Glenden: I wouldn’t say the baby boomers failed. I simply believe that their folly was having a trust in corporations. They got the anti-government ideology down to a T, but they never blamed corporations for their issues. But if you think about it, they did succeed on that. The US is now forever cynical of government thanks to their efforts. I don’t think that’s a bad thing since the government has a lot to answer for. My generation however. We don’t trust corporations or the government. You can say protests don’t work, but it gave workers better conditions, it gave blacks better rights, it took out several mid-eastern dictators and as a trend already, the US is voting more liberal than conservative. The issue really is that the millennials do get out and vote. The reason we didn’t in 2010 was because of the corrupt democrats elected in 2008. Now we see that the republicans are way more destructive as is the tea party and now the tables turned to our favor this november.
#30 by Glenden Brown on November 27, 2011 - 10:08 pm
Look at the history of the Vietnam war. The protests themselves were largely ineffective in ending the war. There’s a powerful case to be made that the war didn’t end until the mainstream stopped supporting it, and even then it lasted several more years. Protests in the US against the Iraq war had millions in the streets and yet that war went ahead. In a democracy, even a dysfunctional one like we have now, protests themselves won’t work. You have to vote, you have to hold office, you have to talk to legislators, congress critters, write letters. It works. By itself, protest can move the public debate and can be powerful but without the other actions, it won’t produce the results necessary.
Arguing that people sat out 2010 because they were disillusioned by Dems is a defense of an obviously bad strategy. Yeah, lots of us were disappointed but we got out and voted and immediately started bringing pressure to Dems to do better. But sitting it out? I’m sorry but that’s not smart. Did you really think that would result in better Dems being elected? in better government?
I think my record on OneUtah is pretty clear – I’m frustrated as hell with the Dems and I’ve advocated long and loud for them to do better. Even a crappy Dem like Jim Matheson – who will follow the crowd and be forever wetting his bed with fear of Republicans – is better than any Republican. That’s not to say I wouldn’t’ prefer better and two years I voted in a primary against Matheson, I wrote letters and tried to voters out. Don’t defend a self-defeating strategy of sitting out elections. It always backfires.
#31 by Larry Bergan on November 27, 2011 - 10:22 pm
The largest city in Utah has an honest and hard working election official. That’s why Kerry won here in 2004 and Obama won here in 2008. The rest of Utah voting is a farce.
You can’t tell me that Bush won here in a landslide after four years of complete nonsense.
We simply have to rid ourselves of the doubt that is created by the punch-cards and the much more expensive machines.
Simple stuff!
Hand mark; hand count!
#32 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 12:51 am
Glenden: Has it not worked? While I get your pessimism about protesting, your generation, thanks to protesting made it so that there is a GI bill, there is no draft, foreign policy changed, the voting age was lowered, a soldier cannot lose his job while active. Protesting did many things that could never be taken for granted.
You can’t say that our sitting out was bad. We gave the republicans a fair chance and they showed us who they were. If anything, we can’t show that the democrats can get away with being half-assed just because they are the lesser of two evils. If you don’t think that is revolutionary, then so be it. We are headed to another progressive era in the world.
#33 by Glenden Brown on November 28, 2011 - 7:44 am
Nathan – The GI Bill was passed in 1944 and had nothing to do with protests. It was an effort on the part of liberals to guarantee that veteran’s benefits were clearly defined and didn’t become a political football. The original bill ended in 1955 and has been extended and modified repeatedly since then. If you want to make an argument about American history, please get it right; it costs credibility when you pull it out of thin air.
I’m not pessimistic about protesting, my argument is that protests by themselves are insufficient. Take the Civil RIghts Movement – its leaders devised and followed a three pronged strategy – civil disobedience (protests, sit ins, etc), grass roots organizing (to register voters, to pressure politicians etc) and economic boycotts (i.e. the bus boycotts). Civil was successful because they pursued those strategies simultaneously. Civil Rights leaders were also keenly aware of the power of public opinion and worked tirelessly to move it in their direction; they were regularly smeared as communists, as socialist agitators, as anti-american and so on and did everything in their power to demonstrate the falseness of those charges. By contrast, the Vietnam War protestors didn’t pursue that kind of comprehensive strategy and were successfully smeared as anti-american, to the extent that people on the right still – 40+ years later – believe things that are untrue about those protestors. We’re already seeing the right smear OWS as a bunch of lazy, no good, anti-american hooligans who poop on police cars (see Cliff’s post to Holly Richardson). It’s a fundamentally dishonest tactic but that has to be confronted. Again, protest by itself can only get so far.
You may also want to check your knowledge of your audience. “My generation” didn’t do a whole lot of protesting since we grew up hearing stories about the Vietnam war protests and we were bored by them.
#34 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 12:53 am
Larry: Cities always vote Democrat. That’s why the GOP preaches to small town America. I once thought that people in the country voted republican for self interest and maybe at one point I was right. But it seems like they are helping nobody.
#35 by Rico on November 28, 2011 - 6:32 am
Faith in next generation beginning to wane.
#36 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 8:17 am
Seems to me Nathans points are legit:
Protesting often works.
Withholding vital energies while an assessment of a present course can be made; not at all unreasonable.
Sensing that if protests of a short duration weren’t effective (and being correctly impatient with progress), congering up and supporting an enduring ‘strike’, might then prove more effective; nothing troubling there – to me. But I can see how the .01%ers could, and are, finding it troubling.
The problem, and it’s perennial, is that the powerful are RESISTANT, have a great many resources, and have sort of created a population that will storm the malls but are unwilling to storm the walls.
The experienced might believe protesting doesn’t work any longer because the Bush / Cheney crowd ( established, moneyed, hands firmly on the control-stick) were simply hellbent on NOT listening (their lavish lifestyles might suffer some adjustments). So we wring our hands at the loss of our precious democracy and get all guilty and austerity and shit.
Then along comes ‘the youthful’. We know there are shits in that age group, but we gotta know there are solid visionaries who need props from the ‘war-wary’.
I say: Right on Dude!
Maybe we’ll turn this turkey this time around. Cant be sitting THIS one out. No siree.
#37 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 8:26 am
Props to Glendon for an informative comment. Gonna take a lot of work on a lot of fronts.
#38 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 9:56 am
The problem with the argument of rich having resources is that they ran out of tricks on how to deal with a robust generation. Media trashing didn’t work, media blackout didn’t, work, police crackdown didn’t work, a cold November didn’t work, smearing the leaders didn’t work. I’m sure they have other cards, but we are more tenacious and we will rule the world before they are dead.
#39 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 10:01 am
cav: If you want fronts, then how does 2,600+ cities sound? It’s the sound of the largest generation being pissed. And honestly, if the corporations and government were not afraid, they would not have tried several brutal crackdowns, none of which have worked.
#40 by Shane on November 28, 2011 - 10:02 am
I think that the key is that protesting works very well at what it does, which is shine a light on what is really happening and let people know they are not alone in thinking what is happening is wrong. The problem is that that knowledge you are not alone in your thinking is not enough to make change alone.
The tea baggers come to mind again. As a non-existent movement, funded and bussed around by the .1%, they make for great show. The thing a protest does is let people know there are more that think as they do, and get them riled up. The tea baggers got created to generate a movement against the dems and to “take us back to founding principles” the vast majority of which were made up. The trouble is that the majority are against the general direction of government, but not the dems specifically. Rather there is evidence they are bothered by the move to the right. So while the tea baggers got a few crazy gun nuts and a lot of old conservative people moving, all they did for the younger and more liberal was show that a protest or two can get the word out. If the tea baggers hadn’t been created, OWS might not have been born.
But lets go back to the protests over Iraq. If they had sustained themselves past the war being started and used that energy to vote Bush out, would we have left Iraq sooner? Maybe so, who can say. But those protest died pretty much as soon as it was clear the repubs weren’t listening.
Lesson: the repubs are not listening. They haven’t been at any point in my life time. There is no sign they will start.
The Dems seldom listen, because mostly what they hear is the repubs telling them they can’t get elected if they don’t shift to the right. What OWS needs to become is a concerted effort to not only vote for what they want but also lobby for it, and yes even run for it. If a few locations would run real progressives against paper liberals like Mattheson, and then turn out to vote and elect them, they could do what the tea baggers did. Occupy a whole party.
The difference is that OWS has real numbers and youth, the tea baggers have corperate backing and stupidity. Youth and numbers win. Assuming they use them. Which means voting, running, lobbying, boycots, etc.
How many people agree with OWS about the consumer culture and movement of wealth and companies being treated as more important than people, and then went shopping on black friday, which now starts on thursday, and never thought about it?
Just askin.
#41 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 10:17 am
2600+ fronts is truly ominous and encouraging. I suggest only that there’s substance in what Glendon suggested in #35 that also will need some of that zeal you’re sporting.
#42 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 10:35 am
Shane: It doesn’t matter if the neocons listen, they will be gone long before the protests will. It’s easy to assume that the conservatives would get away with it since they had for 40 years. But once they could no longer delays the consequences anymore and passed it down to generation Y, they put the final nail in the coffin. Now they want to hold on to what little power they have and it isn’t working. The old hand of power that was pried off in 2008 only got their hands on it briefly. Even now it’s clear they have no power. They can’t get any vote through congress anyway.
#43 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 1:34 pm
Stagnation in the absence of good policy is the best we can hope for. Get used to it. Our fore-fathers were sooo insightful.
#44 by Larry Bergan on November 28, 2011 - 1:37 pm
Nathan:
I apologize for the very rude comments earlier. Had a little too much to drink and the voting machine debate always gets my hackles up anyway. I’ve been arguing with people on the internet about them for years now.
However you wrong about them not being rigged. I know Kerry won the election and Obama won by much bigger margins they we saw. There has been more then one case of machines coming up with thousands more votes then people who were registered and all kinds of other problems, believe me.
The scary thing is that ACORN helped Obama to win and it doesn’t exist anymore based purely on lies. The Democrats helped get rid of the organization which is pretty bizarre.
#45 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 1:48 pm
Larry: I’m done talking to you if you don’t understand or even try to debunk why I believe they weren’t rigged.
As for ACORN, we don’t need them. We are way more powerful than that, we are way more powerful than the GOP and old dogs always have problem with learning new tricks.
#46 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 1:57 pm
But you don’t get old without learning a few tricks brother. The skankiest among us got their learning curve right along with the best. It’s a constant struggle, then you hand it off.
#47 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 1:59 pm
Not to be too philosophical, mind you.
#48 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 2:11 pm
Cav: You will learn that our generation is incredibly quick at grasping a situation and adapting. We have to be, considering how badly politicians fucked with us.
Fancy: And what will they do to us? Kill us? Yeah if there’s anything that Kent State taught us is that it only makes the government look bad.
#49 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 2:24 pm
A new Kunstler is up, and it’s one of his good ones.
http://kunstler.com/blog/2011/11/your-new-american-dream.html
he saves the best for last:
This holiday season spend a little time musing on what the re-set economy will be like in your part of the country. Think of what you do in it as a “role,” or a “vocation,” or a “trade,” or a “calling,” or a “way of life,” rather than a “job.” Imagine that life will surely go on, even civilized life, though it will be organized differently. Add to this the notion that you are part of a larger group, a society, and that societies evolve emergently according to the circumstances that their time and place presents. Let that imagining be your new American Dream.
but getting there is half the… well, not “fun” exactly…
#50 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 2:24 pm
Some of you for sure Nathan..and then like Kent State, it will boil for a while and in time fade unless there is even more of a ruckus. The oligarchy has no worry over your “power”. It is not very much power, and the movement is inside it’s own bubble thinking about how much it actually will wield.
The government doesn’ t care if it looks bad push come to shove, it is going to stay in control..As it is you are peaceful protesters, and nobody is much afraid of them. Slovenly, fat, rent a cops suppress you, there isn’t even a need yet to get serious for the oligarchy. At that point they will infiltrate you with provocateurs, and start some business that will make you all look bad..then paint you up and ship you out…as for the infiltration, it has likely already occurred.
#51 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 2:38 pm
Fancy: Kent State was never forgotten. Infact I only know one or two people my age who haven’t heard of it. Once the government kills its own people, public relations go to an all new low and nothing stays the same. The same thing happened with the Boston Massacre. The first time British soldiers killed civilians. And news spreads very quickly. I’m sure you remember the pepper spray cop. News travels a lot faster now than it did in 1970. Probably one of the bigger reasons why the GOP lost in 2006 and 2008 was because of Youtube. They can’t get away with lying.
#52 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 2:40 pm
#53 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 2:58 pm
BTW Nate, it’s a pleasure to see you posting and to engage with you in this sort of conversation. I hope we haven’t been too tough a crowd.
#54 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 3:01 pm
“Public relations went to a new low”..that is why we are at this juncture I suppose not that there will be any real change at the rate OWS is going. The Boston Massacre was specifically set up by Sam Adams for the purpose of getting people killed so the crown could be seen for what it was. The difference between that event and Kent State, and OWS so far, is that the protesters did go to ground and bear arms against their oppressors and kill them, burn their loyalists homes down, and destroy other of their property. Heck the residents of Boston burned Governor Hutchinson’s mansion and all his treasured belongings to ashes in 1765, 11 years before the Declaration for promulgating the Stamp Act.
I would venture to say that after drugs and rock and roll that followed and the subsequent either dropping out, or buying back into the system by the baby boomers, Kent State might be a footnote in some of those people’s brains. What it did was make clear, the government was absolutely willing to kill it’s own citizens, and not just some brown commies in a far away land. The lesson learned, many people just turned away and tended to their own business…so much so, that we have arrived here. Mission Never Accomplished. I wish thee luck, though if you are in the leadership, you have to consider what Sam Adams did…and pick your martyrs now.
Also, after that Boston Massacre, Sam and moneybags John Hancock (a 17th century Tea Party Koch brother, he funded the original Tea Party) were sought to be seized and hanged as part of the goals of taking Concord, that and the arsenal and powder storage.
Sam wasn’t ever found, and after The Battle of Bunker Hill just a bit later, there were no more petitions between Patriots and crownies…just lead volleys.
#55 by Rico on November 28, 2011 - 3:05 pm
I sense a decent hand being over-played.
Beware the full house!
#56 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 3:17 pm
cav: No offense, but you weren’t really tough. It’s easy to counter an argument when you know you’re right.
#57 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 3:36 pm
“It’s easy to counter an argument when you know you’re right”.
Don’t knock your teeth out when you fall.
#58 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 3:41 pm
My teeth are securely fastened so far.
#59 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 3:54 pm
You can know you’re right. Even know you’re innocent. Sadly pepper-spray plays the part of the fluffer in this little production. Think Wounded Knee, or Falujya – no moral whatsoever.
#60 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 4:08 pm
So far we have been able to turn every police action against the government and made them look bad. It’s a very simple strategy. The more brutal they become, the worse they look. And what are they going to do? They already tried to dig into the leader’s history and that ace up their sleeve backfired.
#61 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 4:11 pm
Lost in the thread was something I posted about the Boston Massacre, in more detail but here is the gist if it..Sam Adams certainly tried for the best opportunity to have the crown soldiers kill some protesters so the greater public could more easily see it for what it was.
The difference between the outcome of Kent State, OWS so far, and the Boston Massacre is that those involved in the BM took up arms, and killed their oppressors. Very big subtle difference.
Have you selected any people for martyrdom yet Nathan? I understand that there was ghetto section in the OWS park in NY, with there being some decided class differences. Have you made the decision which people would be the best to be knocked around by the authorities to get the public enraged to the point of actually doing something meaningful? Who shall you sacrifice?
#62 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 4:19 pm
To be honest, that incident was probably the closest we got to a violent revolution since the Civil War. When violence between the people and the government appears, that brings forth a new level of what is and is not permissible.
#63 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 4:33 pm
Yet despite that violence at Kent state the system as we know it to be now was only strengthened and the people further subjugated Nathan.
Now there is a Patriot Act to deal with people who are summarily deemed threats, and they can be held with the least amount of evidence.
Do you think your movement and the passing of this today in the House, now in the Senate is eerily coincidental?
http://conservativebyte.com/2011/11/senate-moves-to-allow-military-to-arrest-americans-without-charge-or-trial/
Does your generation really have the stomach for what is about to come? All this ushered in under the hope and change president. More like the hopeless change president.
” You cannot petition the Lord(s) with prayer”. Jim Morrison
#64 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 4:38 pm
Fancy. As I recall, it was the baby boomers who willingly did that. Not my generation. Already, occupy has more approval than congress, Obama, the Tea Party or Wallstreet. And the disapproval is 50/50. Nowhere close to the above mentioned.
#65 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 4:42 pm
Ready to power up to deal with this Nathan?
#66 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 4:55 pm
Yet this is what rules us. There is absolutely no meaning in who supports what. The ultimate power is retained in the hands of the oligarchy, and any actions against it now will land you in trouble.
Once your generation has it’s leaders packed away into prison for whatever violations that are cooked up against you, what will you do?
I am absolutely sure that a primary tactic will be to take basically the innocent and vulnerable and try them and give them long prison sentences…like with real criminals. It will be akin to imprisoning supporters of Patriots in the Hulks on the Hudson, which was about an 80% chance of rotting to death in there. Yet those afflicted who founded the nation were willing to take that, and better yet, go arm themselves with the intention of destroying the crown and its military/security apparatus. This is not inflammatory, just a simple matter of history.
Why would anyone in control of the oligarchy cede to OWS demands, as fuzzy as they are? What retribution can the movement bring to bear upon the oligarchy that would compel them to see things the movements way instead of just siccing the security apparatus on you, balling up your tents, and hosing you down?
The Patriot Act was put in place for the very movement you are involved in. You will eventually be defined as domestic terrorists. I am wondering if people actually believe that a government that lied us into multiple wars, killing 100′s of thousands of people, costing trillions of dollars has somehow left dealing with people in parks opposed to them unarmed to…chance. Do you know what I’m saying Nathan?
#67 by Richard Warnick on November 28, 2011 - 5:02 pm
So far the 99 Percenters have done a great job of fighting back against attacks by police by getting every incident on camera. Even when the media representatives are kept out of the area or roughed up, there seem to be plenty of images. Every time we see violent police vs. peaceful citizens.
#68 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 5:11 pm
…and yet nobody with any power gives a flying leaf about it Richard. You don’t see anyone intervening and standing up for the rights of the protesters..do you? The oligarchy is wholly unimpressed in the peacefulness of protesters, in fact it emboldens them to greater violence and no one does anything. There is only one way this is going to turn out…nullification…just like the Tea Party. Tyranny knows what it is doing for the most part. It only fears what has the will, and the means, to remove it. I don’t see that in the OWS people..do you Richard?
#69 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 5:15 pm
Oh, this needs to be watched, I know how you progressives all fall over yourselves about Maddow..even she gets it..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7mwP5Di5NE&feature=youtu.be
#70 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 5:32 pm
Who shall be sacrificed? That’s easy: A small number of those who caused this mess. One or two of the CEO’s of major banks and political parties.
The Tri-Lateral Commish!
#71 by Fancy Feast on November 28, 2011 - 6:13 pm
..and who is going to do that cav? You? Unarmed people in tents in the public park? When do you think CEO’s of Goldman Sachs are going to be in fear for their lives looking out of their “hidey hole”?
#72 by Shane on November 28, 2011 - 6:39 pm
cav: do we need a volcano, or will other sacrificial methods do?
#73 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 7:16 pm
The ante should be torqued upward until the entire class is cringing. Volcanoes are not absolutely required, any sort of precipice could work.
Frankly, I’d settle for just making them poor (in this life).
#74 by Plain old cat food. on November 28, 2011 - 7:34 pm
The class that is about to be wrung out, is in the parks protesting, tyranny does not go so easy. The groceries stores are full, people are pepper spraying each other for the chance to buy crap made in china..sorry but I’m afraid the conditions for a larger populace to support a broader movement is not anywhere in sight. Keeping in mind that once the vanguard fades from the limelight, is when the thief will come.
#75 by Nathan Erkkila on November 28, 2011 - 7:51 pm
So I leave for the day and I get a ton of comments. Anyway the protests in the world do have an impact. If they did not, the wealthy would not go to extreme lengths to quell them. But whatever they do fails because we are more cunning and more persistent. Their money makes no impact when they can’t utilize it to their advantage.
#76 by Larry Bergan on November 28, 2011 - 8:07 pm
Nathan said:
I told you on this post that Al Gore got minus 12,000 votes on a machine in Florida and that other machines came up with thousands of more votes then voters. I thought that might make a computer programmer wince.
I don’t understand your solid belief that they are not being rigged or that this is not a danger.
#77 by Larry Bergan on November 28, 2011 - 8:11 pm
Please try not to turn this movement into a clash of generations. It’s true that my generation dropped the ball. Things seemed to be going in the right direction when Clinton was in office. None of us realized how bad things had gotten until Bush stole office and the internet took off. I was complacent during the Clinton years, however anything but during the Bush years.
My first comment here stated that I am totally behind the OWS movement. I’m proud of what the young people are doing.
#78 by Squire Daymon on November 28, 2011 - 9:54 pm
Which part was going in the right direction? Eviscerating welfare? Irrational exuberance? Webb Hubbell? Johnny Chung? dot com crash? Enron fraud?
#79 by cav on November 28, 2011 - 10:27 pm
Its beginning to look like Cain has the same disease as Clinton.
Restless Third Leg Syndrome.
#80 by Plain old cat food. on November 29, 2011 - 7:36 am
Nathan, the oligarchy has not gone to any lengths yet to quell the protests. YASNY…you ‘aint seen nothing yet, or once media coverage fades, the movement will go away by itself, You have about another month in my opinion before the season takes attention away, and the park dwelling fades into irrelevancy.
#81 by Plain old cat food. on November 29, 2011 - 7:53 am
This article has a good take, OWS, As I maintain the only way to really change this is if you find a way with your fellows to not give the ruling oligarchy another dime the rest of your life. Then assume the lifestyle and material consequences such a life would bring.
Unoccupy Walmart..there are probably more people in 100 given Walmarts that the entirety of any OWS people sitting in our nation’s city parks.
http://theintelhub.com/2011/11/28/occupy-wall-street-hell-no-unoccupy-walmart/
#82 by Plain old cat food. on November 29, 2011 - 8:12 am
..the view from the socialist paradise up north in British Columbia, take this as a litmus, when the Canadians kick you out of the park, it’s over at least for winter.
http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=f8ebe6b6-cc0d-4441-8eb7-7f54725511d8
#83 by cav on November 29, 2011 - 2:27 pm
It was 25 years ago today that President Ronald Reagan and his attorney-general, Edwin Meese, got up before the press and told a series of half-truths and demonstrable lies about what their administration had been up to as regards dealing with Iran, and how some of the money from that dealing had found its way to the Contra rebels then fighting Reagan’s proxy war in Nicaragua.
It remains the great lost opportunity. If the crimes of what became known as the Iran-Contra scandal had been investigated the way they should have been, the political world would have been changed utterly. The George H.W. Bush administration might never have happened, for all that would have meant to George W. Bush’s eventual career. Criminalizing the constitutional crimes that are the inevitable result of the theory of the “unitary executive” might have encouraged the nation to ignore the ravings of an authoritarian lycanthrope like Richard Cheney.
Instead. Washington circled the wagons to rescue Reagan from his crimes. There was the customary gathering of Wise Men — The Tower Commission — which buried the true scandal in Beltway off-English and the passive voice….
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/iran-contra-anniversary-6601916
#84 by Nathan Erkkila on November 29, 2011 - 2:49 pm
Cat food: There hasn’t been a shred of media coverage in most occupy protests. And yet they continue stronger than ever. This isn’t about publicity. The occupy movement is merely a symptom of our generation ceasing power with numbers. Already we are shaping the world into what they want. It doesn’t matter if the Oligarchs listen. They are old, they are not long for this world and the rich baby boomers will be unable to hold their power for much longer. Infact, I give them a year.
Just because one is against government, does not mean they want to rid themselves of it. If they wanted that, then they could move to Mogadishu. Same with being against corporations. It’s clear as day that they don’t give a fuck about us, but we need them. We just need to make sure they give into our demands as the workers and the consumers.
#85 by Richard Warnick on November 29, 2011 - 3:21 pm
cav–
You have to admit John Poindexter, Ollie North and Fawn Hall made a great set of fall guys — worthy of Hollywood. Poindexter went on to further infamy as the designer of Total Information Awareness. Ollie got his own show on Faux News Channel. Wikipedia says Hall later married the former manager of The Doors and became addicted to crack cocaine.
President George H.W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger and five other Iran-Contra figures who might have implicated him. Smart move. He nominated John Tower to be SecDef, but the Senate rejected Tower due to alleged drinking and womanizing (Senators are easily shocked by this sort of misbehavior, apparently). Tower was replaced by one Dick Cheney.
#86 by cav on November 29, 2011 - 4:00 pm
Your generosity is likely exceeded only by the number of hours you spend washing pots, or any other voluntary activities you provide your local OWS encampment.
Richard.
Overlooking the curative effects even one teenie-tiny trial of the clearly demonstrated crooks has become the new law of the land. Somebody wrote recently: Insider trading laws were written for the outsiders alone.
So It Goes.
#87 by Nathan Erkkila on November 29, 2011 - 4:18 pm
Cav: I’m not giving the protests a year. I’m giving the aristocrats a year before they lose power.
#88 by Larry Bergan on November 29, 2011 - 6:25 pm
We’ll know in a year.
#89 by Larry Bergan on November 29, 2011 - 6:41 pm
Squire:
I only said things seemed to be going well during the Clinton years. Lot’s of us had no internet at the time, but there is no comparison to what happened to our country under Bush.
Concerning Webb Hubbell:
Ken Star put Susan McDougal in prison for two years – some of that time was in solitary confinement – because she wouldn’t lie about Bill Clinton. He also wasted precious American time chasing Clinton’s penis.
#90 by cav on November 29, 2011 - 7:46 pm
Nathan E. I misunderstood you.
You’ll note my sensitivity to the issue of ageism and generalizations about ‘boomers’. The ‘boomers’ that created Sh*t is “F*cked-Up and BullShit” (henseforth SIFU&BS) are those who refuse to think even 15 minutes into the future, because there’s money to be made right this second. They definitely need to go!
#91 by Richard Warnick on November 30, 2011 - 8:47 am
“So It Goes.” Must be a fellow Kurt Vonnegut fan, cav.
#92 by Rico on November 30, 2011 - 9:23 am
Yeah, my shit’s fucked upHas to happen to the best of us
And the rich folks suffer like the rest of us
It’ll happen to you.
#93 by cav on November 30, 2011 - 9:24 am
Aye-up!
#94 by cav on November 30, 2011 - 9:29 am
Warren rocked too! Saw him at the ‘dirt palace’ with X and Los Lobos. One of the best shows evah!
#95 by cav on November 30, 2011 - 9:34 am
And if anyone’s wondering where the money to support the violent crack-downs on Occupy Wall Street encampments is is coming from in this time of great austerity, let me say only this:
Lawnorder is better’n nollij!
#96 by Rico on November 30, 2011 - 9:54 am
While we’re on the topic of shit being fucked up, there’s this.
#97 by Larry Bergan on November 30, 2011 - 4:33 pm
You had to admire Kurt Vonnegut’s willingness to speak out right up until his death. Warren Zevon was a master. Thanks for the video Rico, but no thanks for this, which is scaring the hell out of me!
Why do these traitors think they can ignore the constitution when they pass bills?
#98 by Richard Warnick on November 30, 2011 - 5:03 pm
I got the e-mails from the ACLU, but the plan to establish military units with the power to arrest and detain Americans without due process is a bipartisan effort. And it’s the next logical step following the Military Commissions Act, that unconstitutionally suspended the right of habeas corpus.
I honestly don’t think there is anything we can do. This is another law, like the USA PATRIOT Act, that a majority of Americans oppose. Somehow the politicians can do this and get away with it in a supposed democracy.
#99 by cav on November 30, 2011 - 7:00 pm
Maybe you’re a coupla of those ‘black-bandana’ anti-globalization, anarchist crew members. Other wise I see no reason to be afraid – be VERY afraid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#100 by Larry Bergan on November 30, 2011 - 7:04 pm
cav:
I just moved my ‘black bandana’ comment to Richards new post at the same time you commented. Sorry.
This deserves a new post!