Senator Mike Lee Brings The Crazy

Trickle-down

Via Think Progress:

Cloaking his predilection for the rich as concern for the less fortunate, Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) argued Wednesday that raising taxes on the wealthy would primarily hurt the poor.

…“The reason we worry about raising taxes on anyone – even raising taxes on the rich,” Lee argued, is “that will hit the poorest among us the hardest.” Lest listeners get the wrong idea, the Utah Senator insisted, “it’s not that we’re looking out for the rich.”

No, of course not. The fact that trickle-down economic theory has never worked doesn’t mean that Republicans can’t keep pretending that it does!

The Congressional Research Service has documented what we know already: giving tax breaks to the rich helps concentrate wealth at the top, but it does not boost the economy.

  1. #1 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 28, 2012 - 7:50 pm

    If the Carter economy was so great, why did Jimmy Carter get run out of town on a rail? I seem to remember the late 70′s pretty crappy.

    Data the day Reagan took office:
    Mortgage rates: 14.90%
    Inflation: 13.5%
    Unemployment: 7.5%
    GDP growth: -0.3%

    That is the economic record you are defending?

  2. #2 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 29, 2012 - 4:21 am

    1. There is no such thing as trickle down economics.

    2. The marginal tax rates were’t lowered until after the bend in your curve. So you are blaming A for B when A occurred later than B.

  3. #3 by cav - FAT checker on November 29, 2012 - 8:49 am

    What ever happened to Saddam’s model airplanes of mass destruction?

  4. #4 by Richard Warnick on November 29, 2012 - 11:20 am

    What about Senator Lee’s remarks? Is it true that raising tax rates on the rich will hit poor Americans the hardest?

  5. #5 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 29, 2012 - 12:24 pm

    There are better ways to articulate what I think he meant. He could have said,

    “Look, if you discourage new business start-ups and new investment in existing business, then the result in the long run will be fewer jobs for everyone. So poorly designed attempts to increase taxes on the so-called rich will end up hurting working people even more. There are better ways to increase revenues which won’t curtail investment and hiring.”

  6. #6 by cav - FAT checker on November 29, 2012 - 1:29 pm

    Why ‘so-called’ rich?

    Do you not believe the trickle up economy has left trillions parked in the pockets of the ‘so-called’ rich? Perhaps it’s more than symbolic wealth – since they’re ‘Blessed’ and deserving or something.

  7. #7 by cav - FAT checker on November 29, 2012 - 1:52 pm

    If only the government hadn’t forced the banks to loan money to uncreditworthy blacks!

  8. #8 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 29, 2012 - 2:34 pm

    People are people and dividing people into different groups of “us” and “them” is pretty artificial. People all make decisions and decisions matter. You can discourage people from hiring and they indeed will hire fewer people. Doesn’t matter if they are rich or not.

  9. #9 by Richard Warnick on November 29, 2012 - 3:01 pm

    It’s a fact that rich people have more money than poor people. Acknowledging that, and taxation based on the ability to pay, is nothing new.

    “For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required.” — Luke 12:48.

    What’s wrong is to think that rich people are somehow better or more worthy than everybody else. That’s objectively false.

    “Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is not to worry about those people. ” — Willard (“Mitt”) Romney

    Mike Lux:

    A majority of voters fundamentally reject the Romney/Ryan formulation of makers and takers. They know there are bad people out there who cheat their fellow citizens, but they also know that there are probably more of them that are Wall Street financial wizards than are grandmothers living on Social Security.

  10. #10 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 29, 2012 - 3:14 pm

    “It’s a fact that rich people have more money than poor people.”
    And?

    “For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required.” — Luke 12:48.
    How come you are allowed to quote the bible and if anyone else does they are crazy nuts?

    “What’s wrong is to think that rich people are somehow better or more worthy than everybody else.”
    Who said that?
    Quote please.

    I didn’t vote for Mitt.

  11. #11 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 29, 2012 - 3:16 pm

    “A majority of voters fundamentally reject the Romney/Ryan formulation of makers and takers.”
    Shooting the straw man.

    “They know there are bad people out there who cheat their fellow citizens, but they also know that there are probably more of them that are Wall Street financial wizards than are grandmothers living on Social Security.”
    And?

  12. #12 by Richard Warnick on November 29, 2012 - 8:40 pm

    I like the true message of Christianity, which I learned in Sunday school while growing up Catholic. You don’t have to believe in supernatural beings. To paraphrase President George W. Bush, Jesus was no slouch as a political philosopher.

    I gave you a quote, from the candidate who stands for everything you believe in – even if you didn’t vote for him. You may even be aware that the LDS Church teaches the Calvinist belief that the more money you have, the more worthy you are.

    The “makers vs. takers” meme was promoted relentlessly on Faux News and throughout the right-wing noise machine. Twice, when Romney thought he wasn’t being recorded, he revealed himself as a true believer in the makers/takers nonsense. If it’s a straw man, it’s one that the right spent a lot of effort constructing.

  13. #13 by Larry Bergan on November 29, 2012 - 9:42 pm

    Mr. Fact Checker:

    Since nobody knows who you are, you can probably tell us who you DID vote for and remain anonymous.

    No?

  14. #14 by Richard's Fact Checker on November 30, 2012 - 7:16 am

    ” the candidate who stands for everything you believe in –”
    False.

    “You may even be aware that the LDS Church teaches the Calvinist belief that the more money you have, the more worthy you are.”
    Who cares? I’m not LDS.

    “The “makers vs. takers” meme was promoted relentlessly on Faux News and throughout the right-wing noise machine. ”
    I will take you word for it since you seem to watch Fox a lot. Again, who cares?

    Larry, I voted for the candidate who was in favor of legalizing marijuana. You should love him.

  15. #15 by Larry Bergan on November 30, 2012 - 5:39 pm

    I not a one issue voter, fact. Libertarians say some things I like, but are cold on other issues.

  16. #16 by Larry Bergan on November 30, 2012 - 9:40 pm

    Richard:

    Your link to a CNN post from 1999 is bizarre.

    oftenmentionedrunningmates is a word?

    There’s something about no God test, but every single congressperson displays a God test.

    Maybe I’m off by one or two.

    Could be a fake CNN site! You just can’t trust the internet OR the main-stream-media anymore. I’m going with the internet!

  17. #17 by cav - FAT checker on December 1, 2012 - 9:46 am

    . . . and in the everything that is old is new again department we have this excerpt from an opinion piece in the Times.

    And while he wrote a friend that he [Thomas Jefferson] sold slaves only as punishment or to unite families, he sold at least 85 humans in a 10-year period to raise cash to buy wine, art and other luxury goods.

    Destroying families didn’t bother Jefferson, because he believed blacks lacked basic human emotions. “Their griefs are transient,” he wrote, and their love lacked “a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”

    Jefferson claimed he had “never seen an elementary trait of painting or sculpture” or poetry among blacks and argued that blacks’ ability to “reason” was “much inferior” to whites’, while “in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.” He conceded that blacks were brave, but this was because of “a want of fore-thought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present.”

    A scientist, Jefferson nevertheless speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”

    Would have been a great modern Republican, don’t you think?

  18. #18 by Richard Warnick on December 1, 2012 - 11:24 am

    Larry–

    You don’t remember when George W. Bush said Jesus was his favorite political philosopher? At that point, voters ought to have concluded that Bush either was unfamiliar with the teachings of Christianity or else didn’t know what a political philosopher was.

  19. #19 by cav - FAT checker on December 1, 2012 - 1:21 pm

    Or what an asshole George really was.

  20. #20 by Larry Bergan on December 1, 2012 - 6:23 pm

    I never believed that George was religious, he had just been advised by turd blossom that to win elections, you had to talk the talk. He got a lot of practice using evangelicals when he was working on his dads election.

    That story that Laura came to him, and told him he had to stop drinking, or she would leave him, so he found Jesus, is just one more deceit among mountains of lies the whole Bush family relies on to keep everybody confused.

  21. #21 by Richard's Fact Checker on December 1, 2012 - 9:40 pm

    Jesus was a Torah observing Jew. I think it is hard to imagine that Jesus would support abortion, or homosexual marriage.

    He certainly supported and commanded charity. But charity is always given without compulsion. Taxes are not and can never be considered charity in the Christian sense.

    ” So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.”

    It also saddens me when I hear about churches lobbying the government for the tax deduction for charitable contributions. Surely they know that Christian charity is not given with the expectation of receiving some monetary benefit in return. Charity is given for cheerful love. For love of our fellow brothers.

    Charity existed long before there were governments, long before there were income taxes, and long before there were itemized deductions. Humans give to give. Then governments institutionalized it and turned churches into another lobby pressuring congressmen for their special favors. I am sure they sold a few indulgences too. We know how that went the last time that happened.

    So no, taxes are not charity and the government is not charity and giving for a tax deduction is not Christian.

    Are you totally unfamiliar with the teaching of Christianity?

  22. #22 by Richard Warnick on December 2, 2012 - 2:58 pm

    Um, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).

  23. #23 by Richard's Fact Checker on December 2, 2012 - 3:07 pm

    And you point is?

  24. #24 by Richard's Fact Checker on December 2, 2012 - 3:09 pm

    He didn’t say “Render unto Caesar the things which are God’s”

    Thank you for proving my point for me.

  25. #25 by cav - FAT checker on December 2, 2012 - 3:35 pm

    And your point was???

  26. #26 by Richard's Fact Checker on December 2, 2012 - 3:48 pm

    Already made.

  27. #27 by Larry Bergan on December 2, 2012 - 4:08 pm

    I can’t weigh in here, because I don’t read comments made by entities (?) named “Richard’s Fact Checker”

  28. #28 by cav - FAT checker on December 2, 2012 - 5:46 pm

    So what you’re saying is let the “market” clear out “the dead wood”. Let the poor suffer the consequence of their actions – assuming, of course, the poor, who will always be among us, maybe even are us, are responsible for their condition in the first place.

  29. #29 by Richard Warnick on December 2, 2012 - 6:05 pm

    Jesus’ point was: “Pay your damn taxes, because God doesn’t love rich, selfish people.” Paraphrasing.

  30. #30 by Richard's Fact Checker on December 2, 2012 - 6:40 pm

    How consistently wrong about everything can one person be?
    The Bible puts tax collectors in the same group as prostitutes and other sinners of society.

    “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!”
    Matthew 11:19

    You have proven you have no understanding about giving, charity, Christianity, or pretty much anything else. What else do you not know about?

  31. #31 by Droner in Chief on December 2, 2012 - 6:42 pm

    Not really, Jesus just wasn’t an idiot and knew full well what Rome was capable of, which came to pass in 70 AD when Titus destroyed his stiff necked people, burned their temple, and slew all resistors and sold the rest into slavery, so begins the diaspora

    Judea was subdued by his father but Jerusalem starting rebellion again and refused tribute orders and the rest is history, Jerusalem destroyed brick on brick, last time there was peace really, ironic

  32. #32 by Droner in Chief on December 2, 2012 - 6:56 pm

    Titus:” I am at my wits end, these people are defeated and yet here we still are”, “Clemency I have offered and that fairly to the vanquished”

    Tiberius: “I see your dire problem sir, shall we waste them then sir”?

    Titus: I sadly see no other solution, they who have handed their own over to be slain, who is to trust such blindness?

    Tiberius: Waste it is then

    Jerusalem went on to ingest a huge heaping helping of Titus, and Jerusalem, nor Jews, were ever the same again

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